8bitfiles.net/archives/archives.tar/archives/compuserve-file-archive/16 Vendor Support/PIRACY.THD

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#: 14925 S1/Help/Data Lib Tools
    05-Jul-88  20:00:54
Sb: #Software Piracy
Fm: Andy Hackard 73147,3451
To: Sysop/Todd Heimarck (X)

I just wanted to drop you a line and let you know that I really enjoyed your
March essay on piracy.  I also enjoyed the comments from readers in the June
issue. If you were to get more letters (from, say, me), would you print them?

Also, would it be possible (just an idea here) to have a debate on this topic
here in CBMART?  It would be interesting and, I think, well-attended and
thought-provoking.

Anyway, I did enjoy the article. Talk to you soon.
                           Andy Hackard



#: 14927 S1/Help/Data Lib Tools
    05-Jul-88  21:31:49
Sb: #14925-Software Piracy
Fm: Ed Flinn 73127,1476
To: Andy Hackard 73147,3451 (X)

Andy,
    Offhand, I'm not sure how we're going to get anybody to stand up for
piracy.  I've seen discussions, on CIS and elsewhere, and, for the most part,
admitted pirates don't argue their reasons, they flaunt their behavior, and
stick out their tongues.  I think a discussion of it, though, could be
interesting, if only to see if there are any new rationalizations for stealing
someone else's work.  I _think_ I've seen them all, and I don't picture pirates
spending much time considering the effects of their actions, but I'll read the
thread, if it develops.   <ed>


#: 14940 S1/Help/Data Lib Tools
    06-Jul-88  20:37:55
Sb: #14925-#Software Piracy
Fm: Todd Heimarck/Sysop 76703,3051
To: Andy Hackard 73147,3451 (X)

Andy:
   That sounds like a great idea, the debate about piracy, I mean.
   I doubt that many pirates will stick up for their views, however.  We could
make the topic a little broader and talk about topics like this:

   Does the threat of piracy justify copy-protection that knocks disk drives
out of alignment?

   Does the "right to own a backup copy" justify the breaking of protection?
(And should protection-busting software be legal?)

   Anybody have any opinions?
   ToddH



#: 14942 S1/Help/Data Lib Tools
    06-Jul-88  21:53:12
Sb: #14940-#Software Piracy
Fm: Ed Flinn 73127,1476
To: Todd Heimarck/Sysop 76703,3051 (X)

Todd,
    Opinions?  Sure, I've got plenty of them  <grin>

    On the two points you bring up...  Personally, I find copy protection to be
in the same moral category as piracy.  Protection of a program invariably
reduces the usability of that program.  Head-banging protection is the most
offensive form of protection.  As a new 1581 owner, I'm particularly sensitive
to device-specific protection.  I don't much care for the dongle, or the
"Captain Marvel Decoder Ring" protections, either.  While both of them are
honest attempts to allow users of other-than-1541/1571 drives to use protected
programs, and to not bang heads, they assume that the "key" won't get damaged
or lost.
    I feel that I am fully justified in breaking protection on software that I
have purchased.  The copyright law is very clear in permitting me backup
copies.  As a GEOS user, this is particularly important to me, since I have
dozens of disks full of material that's important to me, that could be lost if
my GEOS boot disk were to become unusable.  Since floppy disks are a fairly
impermanent storage medium, that disk _will_ fail, sooner or later.  Since this
disk is distributed as a "flippy", with Q software on the reverse, I think it's
especially in peril.  By breaking protection, and being able to build my own
custom GEOS boot disks, I insure continued usability of the software that I'm
licensed for, as well as my data files.
    It is regretable, admittedly, that this insurance comes at the price of
paying money to people selling protection-busting software.  I'm unaware of any
of these outfits making more than the most token attempts to verify that their
products aren't being used for piracy.  The continued success of piracy insures
the continued use of protection.  I don't see how we break out of the cycle.
The IBM crowd claims that mass refusal to purchase protected software is the
reason that more and more vendors are dropping protection.

    So, to add a new question to this discussion:  If we don't like piracy, and
we don't like copy protection, what do we do about it?  Anyone have any ideas?
<ed>



#: 14946 S1/Help/Data Lib Tools
    06-Jul-88  23:00:25
Sb: #14942-#Software Piracy
Fm: Andy Hackard 73147,3451
To: Ed Flinn 73127,1476 (X)

(Sorry about the lousy formatting...it
 is VERY late at night, and the RETURN
 key is so far over...) Well...

Idea #1-Release all software into the PD as shareware; anyone who likes it can
pay the money, and those who don't ca just delete the stuff. (Yeah, I know it
won't happen, but...)

Idea #2-Complain (LOUDLY) to any company who doesn't provide a reasonable
backup policy.  Conversely, commend and recommend those that do.


Idea #3-Mount an intense campaign against piracy, along the lines of the ones
against smoking.  Hopefully we can get enough social pressure on the pirates to
get them to quit.

Idea #4-Anyone??

I disagree with all the people who say that nothing good ever comes out of PD.
Witness the CAD4.0 program, one of the best I've ever seen, including some of
the ones available for IBM PCs.  Also, the success of Master Composer and,
later, Sidplayer, both of which allowed song files to be put in the PD. People
would see them, play them, and want to know how to compose their own music.
They would then buy the program.
  On the other hand, I do see how copy-protection can be harmful on commercial
software.  The irony is that it is often the legitimate consumer that is
affected by this, since the pirates have, in most cases. removed protection
from their own disks.

--Andy



#: 14951 S1/Help/Data Lib Tools
    07-Jul-88  12:25:11
Sb: #14946-#Software Piracy
Fm: Steve Sileo/Sysop 76703,4244
To: Andy Hackard 73147,3451 (X)

Andy,

I'm one of those who thinks a lot of good software running around today is the
PD variety.  Now that I think of it, I really can't remember the last time I
went to a store and paid for disks other than the unformatted kind.

The only commercial software I use is good old Easyscript and the SIdplayer
Editor.  I do use a couple of pieces of freeware/shareware software on my
<gasp!> ms-dos machine, and here's the kicker.  I've actually registered for
those that I use all the time.  In fact, 0% of the software I have for the
clone is commercial.

I guess based on that alone, I'd have to say that PD software in many cases is
as good as, if not better than, the commercial stuff that's floating around.
Some PD/shareware software blows away its commercial brothers.

Until society as a whole changes its attitudes about it, piracy is gonna be
here for awhile.  It's right up there with 'white-collar' crime.  Somehow, even
though we say we don't like it, we don't prosecute offenders harshly enough.
Let somebody rob somebody else of five dollars at knife point and he's going to
go away for a long time.  Let somebody else embezzle 1.2-million dollars; if he
apologizes and gives the money back, he usually gets a light sentence,
sometimes suspended.

My impression is that piracy is viewed in the same way as some of these other
white-collar economic crimes.  Nobody's threatened by it, in an immediate life
threatening way, so society doesn't want to be too harsh about it.  If this
attitude doesn't change, there's no reason for people to fear the Law, so if
they pirate, they'll continue to do so.

Granted, my examples have been simplified and some white-collar criminals have
been getting the slam-dunk treatment lately (insider trading), so maybe things
have started to change.  Dunno.  We'll have to wait and see.

So there!

-steve






#: 14972 S1/Help/Data Lib Tools
    08-Jul-88  21:26:17
Sb: #14951-#Software Piracy
Fm: Todd Heimarck/Sysop 76703,3051
To: Steve Sileo/Sysop 76703,4244 (X)

Steve:
   A long time ago I learned that the copyright law falls in the realm of civil
law, not criminal law.  It's sort of like slander.  I can slander my neighbor
(call him Joe Blow) and tell everyone that Joe is a liar and a cheat.  I can
notify his customers that he's a complete jerk.  The police won't do a thing
and the district attorney won't prosecute me.  Joe Blow has to take action
himself and ffile a civil suit for slander.
   Same thing for copyrights and pirates.  The police don't actively search for
pirates; the offended company has to catch them and file a suit.
   So you can't say that pirates should be prosecuted.
   Of course, the Software Publishers Association has been active in the area
of piracy and certain companies have been very vigilant.  One even sued the
parents of an owner of a BBS for failing to supervise their child. The FBI
sometimes gets involved if you can prove that the dollar loss exceeds something
like $25,000 (which is hard to prove for BBSes).
   ToddH



#: 14980 S1/Help/Data Lib Tools
    08-Jul-88  23:32:05
Sb: #14972-Software Piracy
Fm: Andy Hackard 73147,3451
To: Todd Heimarck/Sysop 76703,3051

On the other hand, there are bounties (rewards, whatever) for reporting pirate
BBS systems, as was reported in Info Jul/Aug 1988.  More details in that mag.

(BTW...I'm not a regular reader of Info,
 but there's a neat letter by Craig in
 that one, so I read a copy in a store
 in search of that letter. The one
 about pirate BBSs is on the same page.
 Didn't want you to worry, Tdd,
 since they've been giving C! some bad
 press lately.)

--Andy


#: 14952 S1/Help/Data Lib Tools
    07-Jul-88  15:46:29
Sb: #14946-#Software Piracy
Fm: Steve Nye/Sysop 76703,4032
To: Andy Hackard 73147,3451 (X)

Despite the outcry against smokers....I continue to support RJ Reynolds
<smilee>.

   SteveN



#: 14981 S1/Help/Data Lib Tools
    08-Jul-88  23:34:35
Sb: #14952-Software Piracy
Fm: Andy Hackard 73147,3451
To: Steve Nye/Sysop 76703,4032

Polluter! Butthead! (I cribbed that from a PSA done by some group here in town,
I think...I guess that's pirating, eh?)

(Look, Ma, it's one of those filthy...
 UGH...smokers! --turn up nose--)

Nah, as long as you don't breath in my face, I can take it.

(But when your lungs rot out, don't come
 talking to me!!)

--Andy


#: 14955 S1/Help/Data Lib Tools
    07-Jul-88  16:17:13
Sb: #14946-#Software Piracy
Fm: Ed Flinn 73127,1476
To: Andy Hackard 73147,3451 (X)

Andy,
    On idea #1: I suspect you already know this well, but just typed it in
wrong.  Since it does dovetail nicely with the topic so far, tho, let me jump
on it in case it isn't obvious to some members.
    Shareware isn't PD.  Shareware is commercial software that happens to be
distributed in a manner that permits people to try it out before deciding
whether they want to use it.  It also permits the author to avoid paying for
the costs of distributing the package.  There are even a few packages that are
distributed both as shareware and in conventional commercial packaging.
    But paying for shareware that you use is not optional.  Some shareware
authors have made the mistake of referring to payment as a "donation" in their
documentation.  If you decide that a particular piece of shareware isn't what
you want, then you stop using it, and you don't pay for it.  If you continue to
use a piece of shareware, then you pay for it.  Not paying for shareware that
you use is piracy.  Telling yourself that you're still "testing" a piece of
shareware months after you obtained it is piracy and lying.

    On idea #2: The IBM crowd says that this sort of refusing to buy protected
software, and notifying the vendor why they didn't buy it, and what unprotected
package they did buy instead, has proven effective.  I suspect that this works
better when someone responsible for buying, say, 100 copies of a spreadsheet
for a corporation does it, than when you or I buying one copy of a word
processor do it, but I think the idea has merit.

    On idea #3:  No comment, I smoke  <grin>.

    I certainly agree that there's plenty of good PD and shareware software
available.  Shareware doesn't exist without payment, though, and we, the
Commodore crowd, seem to have a reputation of not paying.   <ed>



#: 14982 S1/Help/Data Lib Tools
    08-Jul-88  23:37:56
Sb: #14955-Software Piracy
Fm: Andy Hackard 73147,3451
To: Ed Flinn 73127,1476 (X)

Actually, I was (mis)using the PD term as a catch-all for everything that can
be freely distributed but not sold (etc.)

I probably should have said freeware, which (and correct me on this if I'm
wrong) differs from shareware in that it asks for a donation, not requires that
you pay if you continue to use it.

Thanks for clarifying that, Ed. (Nice to know someone reads this stuff I
write!)

--Andy




#: 14971 S1/Help/Data Lib Tools
    08-Jul-88  21:13:18
Sb: #14942-#Software Piracy
Fm: Todd Heimarck/Sysop 76703,3051
To: Ed Flinn 73127,1476 (X)

Ed:
   I think piracy is abominable.  A programmer works hard for, say, three
months or a year, and what happen?  Some kid makes 100 copies of the program
for his friends and posts it on a bulletin board.
   I can understand why software companies protect their products.  The scheme
I like best is the "type in word 1 from line 10 on page 33" method. I don't
mind dongles.
   I hate the woodpecker in the drive method that destroys disk drives. Just
because I spent $30 on your program doesn't give you the right to throw my $200
drive out of alignment.
   ToddH



#: 14974 S1/Help/Data Lib Tools
    08-Jul-88  21:32:32
Sb: #14971-#Software Piracy
Fm: Steve Sileo/Sysop 76703,4244
To: Todd Heimarck/Sysop 76703,3051 (X)

Todd,

Hadn't heard of the type-in-a-chosen-word-from-the-manual approach to
protection.  Sounds interesting, though.  Kinda like the concept.

-steve



#: 14976 S1/Help/Data Lib Tools
    08-Jul-88  21:36:47
Sb: #14974-#Software Piracy
Fm: Todd Heimarck/Sysop 76703,3051
To: Steve Sileo/Sysop 76703,4244 (X)

The thing is, you can pirate the software, but you can't run it unless you know
the word on page 33.  Most pirates don't bother to copy the manuals.



#: 14983 S1/Help/Data Lib Tools
    08-Jul-88  23:44:53
Sb: #14976-Software Piracy
Fm: Andy Hackard 73147,3451
To: Todd Heimarck/Sysop 76703,3051

Steve--
  I've only seen the type-in copy protection in "The Pawn"(tm) and "The Guild
of Thieves"(tm) by Firebird (or is it Rainbird) Systems(tm).

May as well be safe...wouldn't want to violate trademarks!

Todd--
  I agree that copy-protection that destroys your drive is a lousy idea.

GAMES Magazine had an article a few years back, not about copy protection but
about "Easter Eggs" people had been finding in their software. One of these was
a scheme by Broderbund in which, in the event the disk was read by a potential
pirate, it would wipe itself clean while displaying a light show and the word
"ZAPPO!" on your screen. Altho that would work, it would also tend to
discourage people from making legit backups.

If we could remove the copy programs AND require software companies to provide
a reasonable backup plan, we would have a solution. GEOS and a couple of others
actually force you to backup the disk and then stamp, register, or otherwise
identify both the master disk and the backup, so you have the backup in the
event of something bad happening, but you haven't done anything illegal.

--Andy


#: 14947 S1/Help/Data Lib Tools
    06-Jul-88  23:04:49
Sb: #14940-#Software Piracy
Fm: Andy Hackard 73147,3451
To: Todd Heimarck/Sysop 76703,3051 (X)

Todd-
  I was struck, when I read the readers' comments about piracy (both in your
and David Thornburg's columns) by the number of people who have more software
than they could ever possibly use or even need. I have a friend who used to
pirate software, altho I don't think he does now. He has disks-literally-all
over his room:in jackets, not in jackets, on the floor, the bed, the shelves,
etc. I think this shows that many pirates have little regard for the programs
they collect, and just want the programs themmselves.

--Andy



#: 14975 S1/Help/Data Lib Tools
    08-Jul-88  21:35:11
Sb: #14947-Software Piracy
Fm: Todd Heimarck/Sysop 76703,3051
To: Andy Hackard 73147,3451 (X)

Andy:
   Yes, I know someone like that, too.  He keeps the disk companies in
business.  He belongs to a group that meets once or twice a month to steal
commercial software (they call it "sharing").  They keep track of the list
price and feel pretty good if they can get 10-20 programs worth $25 each in one
session.
   My acquaintance (not really a friend) brags about owning $15,000 worth of
software.  Of course he never uses any of it.  He just hoards it, as if the
list price of $25 (or whatever) is like owning something worth that price.
   Reminds me of Howard Hugheslying in bed with billions in the bank, happy to
have the billions, but worrying about germs and letting his fingernails grow
long.  What a waste.
   ToddH



#: 14988 S1/Help/Data Lib Tools
    09-Jul-88  19:19:37
Sb: #14981-#Software Piracy
Fm: Steve Nye/Sysop 76703,4032
To: Andy Hackard 73147,3451 (X)

On the other hand....it is a proven medical fact that smokers do not catch
Cancer of the Colon.  I may die...but they will have to BEAT my ***hole to
death!





#: 15011 S1/Help/Data Lib Tools
    11-Jul-88  00:32:20
Sb: #14988-Software Piracy
Fm: Andy Hackard 73147,3451
To: Steve Nye/Sysop 76703,4032

Sorta depends on which end of the alimentary canal you smoke with, doesn't it?

A


#: 15013 S1/Help/Data Lib Tools
    11-Jul-88  00:47:38
Sb: #14942-Software Piracy
Fm: Andy Hackard 73147,3451
To: Ed Flinn 73127,1476

This isn't really an idea, just a comment.

I find it interesting that several companies (notably the producers of the
Amiga game Arkanoid) who produce both protection-busting software and other
programs almost invariably copy-protect their other software with schemes that
their copying software won't crack.

One solution was mentioned elsewhere: Make all copy-protection of the "type in
the nth word on the mth page" kind; you can copy the program, but without the
docs you're up a creek. Another, more costly suggestion is to provide huge doc
manuals and sprinkle the necessary commands throughout it. The pirate who wants
to include the docs either has to photocopy an entire book or spend many
precious hours distilling the info into a usable form. Either way, it cuts down
on usefulness.

Just an idea or two...Andy


#: 15012 S1/Help/Data Lib Tools
    11-Jul-88  00:40:51
Sb: #14927-Software Piracy
Fm: Andy Hackard 73147,3451
To: Ed Flinn 73127,1476

Well, at the school I used to attend (thank goodness for graduations!!),
AppleWorks was very heavily pirated and passed around among teachers.

I don't necessarily think that's right, but I can see the rationale.  Even
though I'm in one of the most affluent school districts in San Antone, if not
Texas, we just can't afford to buy AppleWorks for every teacher that needs it.
But almost every department has at least one Apple //e, and usually more.
Teachers make copies of AppleWorks so that more teachers can use more computers
in less time.

As I said, I don't really agree with this, but there is a rationale, and from
some viewpoints, there really isn't anything wrong with it. This way, teachers
can spend less time waiting for computers and more time where it really
matters--in with the students.

(Boy, am I gonna get jumped on now!)

--Andy


#: 14991 S1/Help/Data Lib Tools
    10-Jul-88  01:34:54
Sb: #14980-#Software Piracy
Fm: Todd Heimarck/Sysop 76703,3051
To: Andy Hackard 73147,3451 (X)

Andy:
   The original report about bounties appeared in a COMPUTE! publication long
before Info reported it.  In fact, I know a guy who works at one of the
companies that advertised a reward.  They had to withdraw the offer because so
many pirates reported other pirates (there's no honor among thieves, as they
say).  I've also heard (from very reliable sources) that some companies have
employees who spend 20 hours a week tracking down pirate BBSes.  There's even
one company who gave a "fake" beta-version of a game to another company, to get
access to pirate boards.
   I love it.
   ToddH



#: 15010 S1/Help/Data Lib Tools
    11-Jul-88  00:30:18
Sb: #14991-Software Piracy
Fm: Andy Hackard 73147,3451
To: Todd Heimarck/Sysop 76703,3051

It is pretty funny, isn't it?

I really liked the comment David Thornburg got from some of his letters about
"XCVXB is a piece of trash! I use it every day, etc." His comments on that were
excellent.

Part of the problem, as he followed up on, is that, quite frankly, most of the
software today is too blasted expensive. I don't mind paying $25 for a very
useful book and disk combination, but to pay $30-$40+ for a mediocre game, with
poor docs and that is (to crib from Orson Scott Card's latest column) very
rude, is just too much.

If they (ah, that nebulous pronoun) can produce versions of several popular TV
game shows, reasonably faithful to the play of the originals, with good gfx,
sound, clear documentation, and that only costs $10 (some places even less),
why can't other programs be made for the same amount?

At least we don't have Apples; I recently saw GEOS for the Apple. It cost over
$100 dollars, even discounted some. That is ridiculous, but the same people who
will shell out close to $200 dollars for AppleWorks (a great program, don't get
me wrong) will pay the money for it.

Footnote:The best word processor I've seen for the 64/128 has to be
SpeedScript. It is incredibly easier to use than many others and costs much
less: I bought SS 2.0 for about $9-$10 and got several other good programs to
boot. (no pun intended) Just to prove that expensive does not necessarily mean
good, and vice versa.

--Andy





#: 15025 S1/Help/Data Lib Tools
    11-Jul-88  15:29:06
Sb: #15013-#Software Piracy
Fm: Ed Flinn 73127,1476
To: Andy Hackard 73147,3451

Andy,
    Pity the poor clown trying to use this program, one hand on the keyboard,
on eye on the screen, one eye on the manual, and one hand flipping pages <grin>



#: 15027 S1/Help/Data Lib Tools
    11-Jul-88  17:44:43
Sb: #15025-#Software Piracy
Fm: Marte Brengle 76703,4242
To: Ed Flinn 73127,1476 (X)

Hey, that sounds like what happened when I tried to run the geoPublish tutorial
<grin>

                                                 --M--



#: 15030 S1/Help/Data Lib Tools
    11-Jul-88  19:52:52
Sb: #15027-Software Piracy
Fm: Ed Flinn 73127,1476
To: Marte Brengle 76703,4242 (X)

Marte,
    At least the 'Publish manual lies flat.  I wish the 'Programmer manual did.
There's one that requires some thumbing!   <ed>


#: 15036 S1/Help/Data Lib Tools
    11-Jul-88  22:55:33
Sb: #15025-Software Piracy
Fm: Todd Heimarck/Sysop 76703,3051
To: Ed Flinn 73127,1476

Ed:
   My currently-favorite game is called "Empire".  I believe it's available for
the IBM PC and the Atari ST, although the docs hint that it started out on a
DEC VAX and or PDP-series.
   When the game first runs (on my ST version), it asks for word x on page y. I
look up the word in the manual and I type it in.  It's the least-obnoxious of
the copy-protection schemes.  I don't like dongles and I don't like programs
that grind your disk drive (although I use bobsterm 128, which requires a
dongle).
   It's not much of a bother to look up a word and type it.
   ToddH


#: 15026 S1/Help/Data Lib Tools
    11-Jul-88  15:31:50
Sb: #15012-Software Piracy
Fm: Ed Flinn 73127,1476
To: Andy Hackard 73147,3451

Andy,
    Well, if you were a student there, and you know what they were doing, then
clearly what they're teaching may be different than what they think they're
teaching.
    There is no behavior, no matter how wrong, that people won't rationalize as
being acceptable for them, since they're a special case.  <ed>


#: 15037 S1/Help/Data Lib Tools
    11-Jul-88  23:02:06
Sb: #15012-Software Piracy
Fm: Todd Heimarck/Sysop 76703,3051
To: Andy Hackard 73147,3451

Andy:
   I've been told that teachers are some of the worst pirates.  Their excuses
are very high-minded: I'm helping the kids.  I don't have the budget.  If the
kids see it at school, their parents will buy it for them, so I'm really
boosting sales.
   I don't buy their excuses.  Stealing is stealing.  If you can "just say no"
to drugs, you can "just say no" to stealing software.
   ToddH


#: 15034 S1/Help/Data Lib Tools
    11-Jul-88  22:40:34
Sb: #15010-Software Piracy
Fm: Todd Heimarck/Sysop 76703,3051
To: Andy Hackard 73147,3451

Andy:
   I agree that software is often too expensive, although I think $25 is a
fairly reasonable price for a good game.  At the current price for a movie
(about $5), I could see five movies or buy one game.  Put in those terms, it's
a tossup.  Certain games have provided much more entertainment than five movies
would have.  Other games are so bad that my face turns red from shame when I
think about what a fool I was to spend good money on them.  Might as well just
toss money out of the window of my car when I'm driving down the highway.
   I'm not sure what your point is.  Were you saying that piracy is OK if you
steal from a pirate?  My own attitude is this: If something's overpriced, you
don't buy it (but you don't steal it either).
    ToddH
   P.S. Even if something has a reasonable price (like SpeedScript for the
price of a magazine) people still pirate it.




#: 15045 S1/Help/Data Lib Tools
    12-Jul-88  16:57:38
Sb: #14940-#Software Piracy
Fm: Transactor HQ 76703,4243
To: Todd Heimarck/Sysop 76703,3051 (X)

Hi Todd:

Nobody uses head-knocking protection anymore (thank God!). I had my copy of The
Manager broken specifically because it knocked the head TWICE! I wouldn't use
it again until I had it "fixed". I never gave a copy to anyone of course.

And, yeah, I think breaking it to make a backup is perfectly OK. Thanks to a
certain magical character in Colorado, I now have a GEOS boot disk for my home
hardware setup and one for my office setup. I bought GEOS and I should be able
to use it without a lot of nonsense.

Nick says that a copy-protected operating system is his definition of a useless
thing. It's certainly one of the reasons why GEOS support in T was a long time
coming. We're totally against CP. Most serious users are - as you are well
aware.

Malcolm



#: 15053 S1/Help/Data Lib Tools
    12-Jul-88  23:34:55
Sb: #15045-#Software Piracy
Fm: Andy Hackard 73147,3451
To: Transactor HQ 76703,4243 (X)

I have a related question.

I'm going away to college this fall, and I'm taking my computer.  I want to be
able to use geoWrite 2.1, but at the same time my family still wants to have
GEOS here.  Now, would it be legal to have a copy made for my own use at
college, so that I don't have to deprive the people here of the boot disk? (I
know we still have the backup system disk, but it seems rather foolhardy to
subject both the original AND the backup to destruction if I can just make a
copy for my own use.)

I guess the question is, Is the GEOS boot disk considered to be my father's
property or the family's property? (The geoWrite 2.1 disk doesn't have that
problem; I bought it and I'm the only one that really uses it.)

Someone please answer this soon!

--Andy



#: 15056 S1/Help/Data Lib Tools
    13-Jul-88  10:17:47
Sb: #15053-Software Piracy
Fm: Transactor HQ 76703,4243
To: Andy Hackard 73147,3451

Hi Andy:

Good question! One that I don't think I can answer. If it were me, I'd probably
buy a new copy of GEOS and curse and swear.

I wonder what Berkeley Softworks would say. Maybe you should ask them.

I have two boot disks (and the original) with the CP removed. Now I don't have
to carry that one disk back and forth from home to work. Each one boots to the
configuration I'm using. Work is one drive and REU with 1526. Home is two
drives with MPS 1000. It's so much better that way. I really wish BSW would
drop the protection. Or protect Write and Paint and allow copying of the Kernal
and DeskTop.

Let me know what happens.

Malcolm


#: 15059 S1/Help/Data Lib Tools
    14-Jul-88  01:03:04
Sb: #15045-Software Piracy
Fm: Alan R. Dickey 72220,115
To: Transactor HQ 76703,4243

Mystic Jim, you gotta love a man who comes up with a Real Time Clock for the
128/64. His stuff is pretty good and pretty cheap.


#: 15052 S1/Help/Data Lib Tools
    12-Jul-88  23:21:47
Sb: #15026-Software Piracy
Fm: Andy Hackard 73147,3451
To: Ed Flinn 73127,1476 (X)

This is off the main subject, but I was watching Oprah the other day (as an
intellectual exercise, of course) when she had on women who had had children by
their father or step-father. One father rationalized it by saying, "Your mother
can't have children, so you are going to have them for her."

Just an example to prove your point.

--Andy


#: 15050 S1/Help/Data Lib Tools
    12-Jul-88  23:16:04
Sb: #15034-Software Piracy
Fm: Andy Hackard 73147,3451
To: Todd Heimarck/Sysop 76703,3051 (X)

My point was just that piracy will continue as long as the programs are
expensive enough to justify it. Altho pirating from a pirate has poetic
justice, it still is not OK. (And yes, if it's too expensive, I don't buy it;
it isn't a protest but a function of my budget.)

Actually, I think if the price gets too low, people will pirate it as well,
figuring that whoever wrote the program won't lose too much money. There has to
be a median price in there someplace; I have a sneaky feeling that it is in the
$10-$20 price range.

Someone needs to point out to the major pirates who really don

(ignore that)

Someone needs to point out to the major pirates who don't use most of what they
have that, for what they paid in blank floppies, they probably could have
bought the few programs they do use.

--Andy


#: 15051 S1/Help/Data Lib Tools
    12-Jul-88  23:18:28
Sb: #15030-Software Piracy
Fm: Andy Hackard 73147,3451
To: Ed Flinn 73127,1476 (X)

My solution is to invite a friend over; he can read the words from the book (or
the tutorial or whatever) and I can type, or vice versa. (Requirement #1: You
have to have a friend. A very good friend. Preferably who likes computers.)

--Andy


#: 15046 S1/Help/Data Lib Tools
    12-Jul-88  17:08:10
Sb: #14942-Software Piracy
Fm: Transactor HQ 76703,4243
To: Ed Flinn 73127,1476 (X)

Hi Ed:

Near as I can tell, the ONLY solution is mutual trust and respect. The IBM
crowd are probably on the right track. Leaving out the protection is a kindness
that the vendor does for you. Buying his program and keeping it to yourself is
what you do for him. The pirates get past the CP and the legit user is still
plagued by it. Cui bono?

If I wrote a program that I wanted to distribute commercially, I would want it
in the contract that it NOT be copy-protected. If they couldn't accept that I
would probably want to find another publisher.

Malcolm




#: 15097 S1/Help/Data Lib Tools
    16-Jul-88  22:43:51
Sb: #14927-#Software Piracy
Fm: Andy Hackard 73147,3451
To: Ed Flinn 73127,1476 (X)

Another question.  Assume this situtation:

There is a program that I want and would use.  After research, I discover that
not only is the program no longer produced, the company that sold it has gone
out of business!! (Not an uncommon occurence in the software publishing field.)
Would--and remember, this is hypothetical--my getting a copy from a friend then
be justified? (Or,at least, understandable?)

--Andy



#: 15098 S1/Help/Data Lib Tools
    17-Jul-88  00:05:36
Sb: #15097-#Software Piracy
Fm: Todd Heimarck/Sysop 76703,3051
To: Andy Hackard 73147,3451 (X)

Andy:
   Good question.  The company went out of business, but you still want the
program.
   The company probably went out of business because of piracy.
   The copyright still exists even after the company is gone.  Maybe it
returned to the original author or maybe it was sold to some other company.
But maybe the program isn't commercially available.
   If you still want the program, you could make a copy.  It would still be
immoral, in my opinion.  But on the other hand, enforcement of copyrights is up
to the copyright-holder.  It's a civil (not a criminal) matter. If the original
company went out of business, nobody from that company is going to sue you for
infringement.  If the copyright returned to the author, he might sue you (or
he/she might make it public domain).
   The police won't track you down, but the (new) copyright-owner might.
   ToddH



#: 15100 S1/Help/Data Lib Tools
    17-Jul-88  07:10:48
Sb: #15098-#Software Piracy
Fm: Ed Flinn 73127,1476
To: Todd Heimarck/Sysop 76703,3051 (X)

Todd,
   "The company probably went out of business because of piracy."

    Maybe yes and maybe no.  There's plenty of ways to go out of business, and
plenty of non-software companies, that never heard of piracy, go out of
business every day.  It's true that pirates can kill a software outfit (rumor
has it that they killed BASIC 8) but bad management can kill a company without
help from anybody.   <ed>



#: 15110 S1/Help/Data Lib Tools
    17-Jul-88  16:38:04
Sb: #15100-Software Piracy
Fm: Andy Hackard 73147,3451
To: Ed Flinn 73127,1476 (X)

The opposite problem from piracy can also kill a program-lack of interest. The
question relates to whether or not a user should have to suffer just because
nobody else likes a program HE has a use for.

--Andy


#: 15099 S1/Help/Data Lib Tools
    17-Jul-88  06:59:24
Sb: #15097-#Software Piracy
Fm: Ed Flinn 73127,1476
To: Andy Hackard 73147,3451 (X)

Andy,
    OK, I think that's a good one.  There's plenty of good programs that are
out of print right now.  I can think of one 128 term pgm in particular that I
imagine a lot of people have pirated simply because it's not available legally.
It's a tough call.

    On the one hand, it is piracy.  In fact, by circulating copies of the pgm,
the value of the pgm to a potential new buyer is lessened, and it thus becomes
less likely that it will ever again appear commercially.  On the other hand, if
you were to simply get a copy for yourself, not make any copies for friends,
keep looking for legitimate sources, and buy the program if you ever find it
available, I think you could make a strong case that you haven't done anything
wrong.

   In short, I think it's pretty grey.  It may be piracy, or it may not, but if
it is, it's a very different piracy than picking up a cracked program and
uploading it to the world.

   Here's one for ya.  Another hypothetical.  A friend gives you a disk with
some files you've asked for.   Along with those legit files has been included a
copy of a commercial program you've expressed interest in.  Is it OK to use
that program, which you did not ask for, for a couple of weeks, to decide if
you really do want the program?  <ed>



#: 15109 S1/Help/Data Lib Tools
    17-Jul-88  16:35:33
Sb: #15099-#Software Piracy
Fm: Andy Hackard 73147,3451
To: Ed Flinn 73127,1476 (X)

Ed, as you stated the problem, I wouldn't think there was anything wrong,
assuming you did actually buy the pgm in the end, if you wanted it, or deleted
the pgm, if you decided it wasn't what you needed.  On the other hand, if you
stretch the "trial perd" into weeks, months, or years, THEN you have done
something wrong.

BTW...did you read Todd's articles in the Gazette about this?

--Andy



#: 15111 S1/Help/Data Lib Tools
    17-Jul-88  17:07:18
Sb: #15109-#Software Piracy
Fm: Ed Flinn 73127,1476
To: Andy Hackard 73147,3451 (X)

Andy,
   Yes, I did read Todd's article at the time, and still have the issue around
here someplace, but it's been a while, and some of the details are a little
foggy.

   I've been explorinb the CP/M side of my new 128 lately, and have been all
over the system looking for stuff, since theie are CP/M programs tucked away in
all kinds of places on CIS.  Some of the forums that today support specific
hardware that runs MSDOS also have sections that support their old CP/M boxes.
One of the places I've been is GO CLUB, which supports a wide variety of
orphaned machines.  They have a section for the Adam, and I happened to read of
some very unpleasant piracy problems they've been having.  It seems that there
are people trying to support Adam users with new hardware (the item in issue
was, I believe an interface to allow them to use other printers), and they've
been having trouble with other companies taking their designs and selling them
as their own.  Hardware piracy!    <ed>



#: 15118 S1/Help/Data Lib Tools
    18-Jul-88  00:00:18
Sb: #15111-Software Piracy
Fm: Andy Hackard 73147,3451
To: Ed Flinn 73127,1476

ARRRRGGGH! (as Steve would say)

On a note in your post...if you find any really good CP/M stuff, would you let
me know?  My poor Z80 is just sitting thre idle because I have nothing to use
it with.  Thanks a lot. (128 CP/M stuff would be really nice; I want to learn
how to access the SID chip from that mode!) Talk to you later...Andy




#: 15120 S1/Help/Data Lib Tools
    18-Jul-88  09:30:15
Sb: #15059-Software Piracy
Fm: Transactor HQ 76703,4243
To: Alan R. Dickey 72220,115

Hi Alan:

Yeah, Jim sent us a box of disks which I got into. I sent him my $50 in May and
haven't heard anything from him yet.

Course, I haven't been waiting as long as you did for Juggler <oops>

Malcolm


#: 15121 S1/Help/Data Lib Tools
    18-Jul-88  09:34:14
Sb: #15097-Software Piracy
Fm: Transactor HQ 76703,4243
To: Andy Hackard 73147,3451

Hi Andy:

Another good question. I have a related one. Suppose there's a dynamite PET
program in an old issue of Compute! (and there are). C! is never going to put
it in a book or reprint it but there are people with PETs who would want it.

Would be nice if the magazines would drop gems like that into the PD. I think
it would make for good PR. Maybe Todd has a comment here...

Malcolm


#: 15122 S1/Help/Data Lib Tools
    18-Jul-88  09:44:38
Sb: #15099-Software Piracy
Fm: Transactor HQ 76703,4243
To: Ed Flinn 73127,1476 (X)

Hi Ed:

I don't have a problem with that. I've gotten commercial programs illegally
when I needed to use them and then bought them later.

Before I worked for Transactor, I was working in the IBM world. We got a
program to test - keyboard macros. Unprotected. Great program but they were
going to return it. I copied it to my hard drive and refused to stop using it.
They finally bought it for me. If that program had been protected they wouldn't
have made that sale.

The program, for you IBM types, was Keyworks.

If I was the author, I wouldn't raise a fuss about my program moving from one
person to another person who's intending to purchase. It's the Global
Distribution stuff that bugs me. Course, it is easy for the former to get out
of hand.

Malcolm


#: 15147 S1/Help/Data Lib Tools
    19-Jul-88  21:01:39
Sb: #15120-Software Piracy
Fm: Alan R. Dickey 72220,115
To: Transactor HQ 76703,4243 (X)

Word is that Jim's printer was charging him more for the DOC files than he was
charging his customers for them! I also get the feeling that his business is
becoming "too good" for him to keep up with his current resources. The Real
Time Clock works really well, I7d like to learn how to access it from BASIC 7.0
and CP/M.


#: 15150 S1/Help/Data Lib Tools
    20-Jul-88  00:43:27
Sb: #15098-#Software Piracy
Fm: Marte Brengle 76703,4242
To: Todd Heimarck/Sysop 76703,3051 (X)

The company for which I wrote a manual went out of business.  Piracy may have
been part of it, but believe me, there were plenty of other reasons. The
company which distributed that software ALSO went out of business, and piracy
had nothing to do with it.  Regardless of the reasons involved, I never saw one
red cent for all my hard work on that manual.  It's very, very hard to stay
"moral" when someone asks me for a copy of that particular program, believe me.
So far I've resisted the temptation to hand them out, but when the bills come
due and I think how much I could have used the money those people OWE me...

<<<<sigh>>>>

                                                            --M--



#: 15152 S1/Help/Data Lib Tools
    20-Jul-88  02:30:22
Sb: #15150-Software Piracy
Fm: Todd Heimarck/Sysop 76703,3051
To: Marte Brengle 76703,4242

Marte:
   I know how you feel (sort of).  Ten years ago I did some freelance writing
for a magazine.  At first they paid right away, but they got slower and slower
in their payments to freelancers.  At one point, they askd me "Wanna write an
article about such and such?"  I replied "Wanna pay me for the last two
articles?"  They declined.  I declined. A couple of months later they went out
of business.
   ToddH


#: 15148 S1/Help/Data Lib Tools
    19-Jul-88  21:04:33
Sb: #15123-#USER POLL/PRINTERS
Fm: Alan R. Dickey 72220,115
To: Transactor HQ 76703,4243 (X)

Sounds odd, I seem to recall several GC drivers on the driver disk. I saw
elsewhere that there is a 24 pin driver for Epson/Star, but it does not fully
support all the printer's features. When does the new T come out?


#: 15164 S1/Help/Data Lib Tools
    21-Jul-88  22:09:09
Sb: #15122-#Software Piracy
Fm: Todd Heimarck/Sysop 76703,3051
To: Transactor HQ 76703,4243 (X)

Malcolm:
   The "I'll try it out and then buy it" theory doesn't work.  You can't try
out a stereo system or a car for a month before you decide to buy it. You can
listen to a stereo (in the store) or test drive a car (with a salesperson), but
you can't take them home for a couple of weeks.
   Consider the ease of use argument.  Either a program is easy to use or it
isn't.  There are many programs that have 10 zillion commands and a 600-page
manual.  If you have a "test copy" of SpeedScript, you might not know about the
SHIFT-CTRL-P command that prints to any device, for example. So you test it out
and decide not to buy a legitimate copy because it doesn't create ASCII files.
But it does and that fact is documented. The people who try it  before they buy
it don't know it, though.
   How can you test a program without the documentation?
   Maybe the program is so easy to use that you don't need instructions. Fine.
But if the program is that easy to use, I'll bet that for every honest person
who tries and buys there are 10 or 20 people who try it and keep it without
buying a copy.
   ToddH



#: 15168 S1/Help/Data Lib Tools
    22-Jul-88  09:50:01
Sb: #15164-Software Piracy
Fm: Transactor HQ 76703,4243
To: Todd Heimarck/Sysop 76703,3051

Hi Todd:

You're right, of course. There are probably 10 or 20 people who will keep it
without buying it.

My case wasn't "try before I buy". I knew I wanted it before I tried it! I just
didn't have any money (even for food!). I was working on a long program and a
friend said "You need a list scroller" and gave me a copy of Power. Told me it
did lots of other neat things and that I should get it sometime. Once I was
working again and had some money, I did buy it.

All the stuff I use was purchased, given to me by the author, or by the
publisher as a review copy. And I use a few PD's - mostly Thirdterm.

And I've bought stuff that I never use. I bought Turbo Pascal for the IBM. A
language I don't know for a computer I don't have. Why? It was cheap.

Malcolm


#: 15165 S1/Help/Data Lib Tools
    21-Jul-88  22:17:32
Sb: #15121-Software Piracy
Fm: Todd Heimarck/Sysop 76703,3051
To: Transactor HQ 76703,4243 (X)

Malcolm:
   I do have a comment about putting old PET programs in the public domain.
The contracts have changed over the years, but I remember a clause that says if
a program goes out of print and COMPUTE! stops selling the book, the copyright
reverts to the author.  I'm not sure what the period of time is or if it
applies to magazine articles, but I would prefer the author to get the
copyright instead of COMPUTE! putting something in the public domain.  The
author could sell the book or program to someone or he/she could put it in the
public domain.
   ToddH


#: 15169 S1/Help/Data Lib Tools
    22-Jul-88  09:53:53
Sb: #15165-Software Piracy
Fm: Transactor HQ 76703,4243
To: Todd Heimarck/Sysop 76703,3051

Neat!

I had no idea that Compute! let copyrights get back to the author. That's the
way it should be. I remember in particular a threading disassembler that I
hoped wouldn't be consigned to limbo. Wonder if any of those are out there...

Malcolm


#: 15177 S1/Help/Data Lib Tools
    23-Jul-88  01:46:15
Sb: #15168-Software Piracy
Fm: Todd Heimarck/Sysop 76703,3051
To: Transactor HQ 76703,4243

Malcolm:
   You bought Turbo Pascal for the IBM because it was cheap?  You don't know
Pascal and you don't have an IBM?
   I'm not a big fan of Pascal.  I suggest that you get your hands on a PC and
try out Turbo Pascal.  Pascal imposes some arbitrary rules on a programmer.
The language makes it difficult to PEEK and POKE.  Why? Because a
beginner/student shouldn't have to worry about machine architecture.  I don't
mind declaring my variables.  I do mind typing BEGIN and END.   You should try
Pascal just once to see how confining a language can be.
   ToddH


#: 15195 S1/Help/Data Lib Tools
    24-Jul-88  09:48:58
Sb: #14947-Software Piracy
Fm: Richard Johnson 71540,2012
To: Andy Hackard 73147,3451

Another idea, Make each disk/software have its unique ID, or serial number.
Make it ingregal with the program, so it cannot be tampered with. Then at point
of sale, make the buyer register.  If the software shows up on BBSs or copied
in the piracy world, procecute the he** out of the of the original buyer, the
one that let others copy the prg.





#: 15202 S1/Help/Data Lib Tools
    24-Jul-88  18:48:27
Sb: #14947-Software Piracy
Fm: Edward Connors 72060,572
To:  73147,3451

Another idea.  Form a software museum.  Assign copyrights to it.  Spread a
scare about "viruses", "head-banging", and incendiary diskettes. Tell users
they can get a RELIABLE copy from the museum by e-mail with a credit card, or
CIS account.  As for compensation of authors, always charge a flat price for
each diskette, but let users vote to nominate a "best  author" for the
equivalent of a Pulitzer prize: about 12 different  software categories, and a
nice cash payout.  Some well-known magazines have paid such honoraria to
authors based on the readers' replies on response cards.  The museum could be
supported like public TV used to be, with donations and government grants.
This would ensure it could afford to pay the prizes.  This approach would have
a helpful effect.  Commodore programmers would have an incentive to write
programs for practical uses, such as scheduling of small bus companies,
diagnosing eye diseases, building alarm interfaces for public-owned utilities,
etc.  REAL applications, not just games.




#: 15209 S1/Help/Data Lib Tools
    25-Jul-88  09:54:10
Sb: #15177-Software Piracy
Fm: Transactor HQ 76703,4243
To: Todd Heimarck/Sysop 76703,3051

Hi Todd:

My mother actually has a Commodore PC-10 III. I'm not a big Pascal fan either.

I fooled around with it a bit but couldn't get into it either (although the
Turbo environment in the PC IS nice). Somehow I'm convinced that when the
compiler starts on your code it knows it's not at the end yet. The fellow
looking over my shoulder says that BEGIN and END are the same as the curly
braces in C. Not fond of those either particularly. Least they get typed fast.

I wound up using Turbo to edit DOS files.

Malcolm



#: 15213 S1/Help/Data Lib Tools
    25-Jul-88  20:18:51
Sb: #15177-Software Piracy
Fm: Steve Nye/Sysop 76703,4032
To: Todd Heimarck/Sysop 76703,3051 (X)

   Begin ;

There ; is ; nothing ; wrong ; with ; Pascal ; ! ;
   <smile> ;
   end ;


Read action !t



#: 15241 S1/Help/Data Lib Tools
    26-Jul-88  23:34:09
Sb: #15195-Software Piracy
Fm: Andy Hackard 73147,3451
To: Richard Johnson 71540,2012

That is a good suggestion.  The only problem that I can see is that it would be
very difficult to implement; every dealer would need the various reg forms for
all of the software he sold, increasing his paperwork.  Also, you would have to
deal with lax dealers who did not stringently apply this law, as well as other
contingencies.  I do think this idea has some merit, though.

--Andy